The Eternal General - 04/24 - Unpinned but alive; Atlas/Monsters nowhere in sight; Slash 'Orgy of the Damned' next month

[Jeff Isbell]

On 11/18/2023 at 12:51 PM, wasted said:

The idea that CD was really delayed because Axl was trying to finish This I Love, a song he didn't really want on the album, haunts my living nightmares. 

Has been said that Axl didn’t initially want to include TIL, but Finck pressured him to

[gunsntortillas]

I doubt there was a singular reason why CD was delayed. TIL leading to the delay might be true in a bubble, but if it wasn't TIL, it would be something else. Judging by what we have heard about the process, the album was never going to be ready, both because of Axl and the label. Axl was supposedly ready in 1999, the label wasn't. So on and so on. It's a miracle the album came out at all.

 

At the end of the day, it only came out because there was a perfect storm where they were able to find multiple business-to-business transactions to bail the recording company out of the recording costs. 

 

We know the album was "ripped out of the hands" of Axl when he felt he was close to completing it. He does have a legitimate gripe about how half-assed the release was with errors in the booklets, and even the incorrect mix of one of the songs allegedly making it as far as the pressing plant. A lot of the song-titles were not even finalized with the marketing material. 

 

With that said, I don't blame the record company in that situation. They found some marks to wash their hands of a failed business transaction. Axl not being sure if vocals up 1.5 db, or snare mono guitars down 1.0 db being the final song wouldn't be worth losing out on having someone else buy the album off of them. 

 

The only better situation for releasing the album would have been if the old group had some sort of full or partial reunion in the 2006-2007 time frame, and they released CD as an old-Guns album. I am not saying it would have been a better album, but had that happened and had it not been exclusive to Best Buy, it might have sold comparably to some of the big AC/DC albums in that time frame because that is what everybody other than the hardcores wanted. 

[gunsntortillas]

chorus.fightthe.pw

 

For those who want the Rockband Stems, go to that site and search Guns N' Roses or Chinese Democracy.

 

They are .ogg files. You should be able to play them in VLC Player. They may not work in other media players.

 

The song.ogg is the file that has the pianos, synth, and backing instruments. 

 

If you want a quick way to hear a bunch of wacky stuff, load the song.ogg file into Audacity, and separate the stereo track into two mono tracks. For example, at about 55-1:05 in one of the split song.ogg for TIL, I swear I can hear some random hayyyy hayyy hayyy backup vocals. Although, they might be an orchestral instrument. They are mixed super low, you need headphones and to split the files even to hear them. Its absurd. 

 

If I was more proficient in the AI stuff, I would see if any of the instrument splitters could work with these. They are so dense, that I am unsure if the basic ones available online that are meant to split guitars, drums, bass, etc would properly separate all the orchestration, piano, and other supporting instruments.

 

You could also use Audicity to tweak the songs. For example, if you wanted TIL without the guitars, you could load up the rhythm, drums, vocals, and "song.ogg" file, and export as an MP3. 

 

These files have been accessible for 15 years, so this is nothing new. These are the reason we have songs like Messages From Madagascar. It's still worth a listen if you're nutty about the CD era and want to hear parts of the songs that you would never hear with the standard mix. 

 

 

 

[DaddyDont]

1 hour ago, gunsntortillas said:

Axl was supposedly ready in 1999, the label wasn't.

Axl's "we're ready to mix" quote came from early 2001 when he played the tracks for Bob Ezrin, and Ezrin told him he only had two good songs

 

"Oh My God" wasn't released until late 1999, and even then Axl said it was basically just a demo

[DaddyDont]

The last quote I can find from Axl before the album was released as to how much material was finished was from January 2006:

 

"working on thirty-two songs, and twenty-six are nearly done"

 

Axl only touched up existing vocals at Palms studio in December 2006, so he wouldn't have recorded any new lead vocals at that point

 

So unless he's recorded new vocals after 2008 (lol), the 26 "nearly done" tracks would have been:

 

Absurd

Atlas Shrugged

Berlin (Oklahoma)

Better

Catcher in the Rye

Chinese Democracy

Going Down

Hard School

If the World

I.R.S.

Madagascar

Monsters

Oh My God

Perhaps

Prostitute

Riad N' the Bedouins

Scraped

Seven

Shackler's Revenge

Sorry

State of Grace

Street of Dreams

The General

There Was a Time

This I Love

Thyme (Beltrami's completed orchestral instrumental)

[gunsntortillas]

2 hours ago, DaddyDont said:

Axl's "we're ready to mix" quote came from early 2001 when he played the tracks for Bob Ezrin, and Ezrin told him he only had two good songs

 

"Oh My God" wasn't released until late 1999, and even then Axl said it was basically just a demo

 

I got the timeline wrong. For whatever reason, I always thought the Ezrin thing happened in 1999. A quick check with Chinese Whispers, and he was actually brought on in late 2000, not late 1999.

 

So you're right about 2001. Just replace 1999 in my sentence with 2001.

[Sydney Fan]

7 hours ago, gunsntortillas said:

I doubt there was a singular reason why CD was delayed. TIL leading to the delay might be true in a bubble, but if it wasn't TIL, it would be something else. Judging by what we have heard about the process, the album was never going to be ready, both because of Axl and the label. Axl was supposedly ready in 1999, the label wasn't. So on and so on. It's a miracle the album came out at all.

 

At the end of the day, it only came out because there was a perfect storm where they were able to find multiple business-to-business transactions to bail the recording company out of the recording costs. 

 

We know the album was "ripped out of the hands" of Axl when he felt he was close to completing it. He does have a legitimate gripe about how half-assed the release was with errors in the booklets, and even the incorrect mix of one of the songs allegedly making it as far as the pressing plant. A lot of the song-titles were not even finalized with the marketing material. 

 

With that said, I don't blame the record company in that situation. They found some marks to wash their hands of a failed business transaction. Axl not being sure if vocals up 1.5 db, or snare mono guitars down 1.0 db being the final song wouldn't be worth losing out on having someone else buy the album off of them. 

 

The only better situation for releasing the album would have been if the old group had some sort of full or partial reunion in the 2006-2007 time frame, and they released CD as an old-Guns album. I am not saying it would have been a better album, but had that happened and had it not been exclusive to Best Buy, it might have sold comparably to some of the big AC/DC albums in that time frame because that is what everybody other than the hardcores wanted. 

I think if the reunion happened in 06/7 UMG would not have released the CD album. At that stage the GH was still shifting units and i could see UMG repackaging and re-releasing the GH with a couple of additional "completed" CD songs, as you said so it looks like old guns material or "new music by Guns N Roses" to promote the reunion and shift even more copies of the GH.

Then release further CD songs as an EP to promote further tours ( 08-10-12).

 

[gunsntortillas]

13 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

I think if the reunion happened in 06/7 UMG would not have released the CD album. At that stage the GH was still shifting units and i could see UMG repackaging and re-releasing the GH with a couple of additional "completed" CD songs, as you said so it looks like old guns material or "new music by Guns N Roses" to promote the reunion and shift even more copies of the GH.

Then release further CD songs as an EP to promote further tours ( 08-10-12).

 

 

New rock CDs still sold back then. AC/DC did nearly 2 million units. 

 

If they had CD finished, and all they needed was for Slash and Duff to spend a few months redoing guitar parts on enough music to put out a full length CD, they absolutely would do it. People were always weird about the baggage with NuGNR VS OldGNR, and the narrative would change from it's Axl's garbage techno album to it just needed Slash!

 

It took them almost a decade to release music after the original reunion, but I think even if Axl did not want to release anything, the label would have been more motivated in 2006-2008 because they still needed to recoup their massive investment in the material. 

 

You're right that if we go off what they did with the 2016 reunion, they probably don't release any new music, but I can't see that being palatable when an album was basically done. Keep in mind, they didn't have to release a 75 minute album. 10-12 songs or whatever is more than enough. 

[wasted]

9 hours ago, General Dexter said:

Has been said that Axl didn’t initially want to include TIL, but Finck pressured him to

I think the solo was done in 2006?

 

I guess it's not a CD era song, it's funny that it's that song that is the only song in top 20 on Spotify from CD. 
 

If they were seriously promoting CD they'd have used it as a single. Remember the 90s, here's another one like that, put Ashba on a church soloing for the video. Shame MTV became a cooking channel. 

[Sydney Fan]

26 minutes ago, gunsntortillas said:

 

New rock CDs still sold back then. AC/DC did nearly 2 million units. 

 

If they had CD finished, and all they needed was for Slash and Duff to spend a few months redoing guitar parts on enough music to put out a full length CD, they absolutely would do it. People were always weird about the baggage with NuGNR VS OldGNR, and the narrative would change from it's Axl's garbage techno album to it just needed Slash!

 

It took them almost a decade to release music after the original reunion, but I think even if Axl did not want to release anything, the label would have been more motivated in 2006-2008 because they still needed to recoup their massive investment in the material. 

 

You're right that if we go off what they did with the 2016 reunion, they probably don't release any new music, but I can't see that being palatable when an album was basically done. Keep in mind, they didn't have to release a 75 minute album. 10-12 songs or whatever is more than enough. 

In terms of musical baggage if i remember back to 06/7 on the GNR website there was no band photos, no streaming of their discography on the website, even the leaked CD songs.

So yes i guess Duff and Slash could redo the tracks as no one would know who the real players on the album were. I could see UMG repackage GH again and the reunion might sell even more units of Contraband 

 

 

 

[wasted]

There's definitely an element of an album doing as well as it's promoted. Not some genius marketing gimmick, just paying for videos and media blitzes. You can't do the blistering debut for 350k and bad boys of rock n roll forever.  Even Metallica were on they knees doing that Some Kind of Monster documentary. GNR didn't even have management for CD really and even for the reunion there's no clear plan. The Perhaps video isn't directed by Fincher, it's almost homemade on youtube editor. 

[Gordon Comstock]

The problem with re-packaging CD songs with Slash and Duff is they'd still have the same vocals and lyrics. Madagascar, Sorry, Prostitute, if Slash wants to replace a ballad with a rocker they've got Hardschool... they're awkward songs to put on a 'reunion' album. It would've been funny, but stupid even by GNR standards.

 

2006, 2008, whatever... they should've dumped all the material at once. A double album, 2 CDs, 12 tracks on each, and tour if for a year. Then do the reunion tour in 2010 while Axl and Slash could both still pull it off properly.

[DaddyDont]

51 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think the solo was done in 2006?

The last time the band was in the studio together was January 2007 (1 month) at Electric Lady Studios in New York City, so maybe then - that would have been when Ron redid the "Catcher in the Rye" and "Atlas Shrugged" solos

 

Before that, the last time they were in the studio was March 2004 to July 2005 (16 months) at Woodland Ranch Studios in Los Angeles after Buckethead left the band

 

They were at The Village in Los Angeles from October 2000 to February 2004 (40 months)

 

Before that, they were at Rumbo Recorders in Los Angeles from March 1998 to September 2000 (30 months), and The Complex in Los Angeles from April 1994 to November 1997 (43 months)

 

GRAND TOTAL STUDIO TIME = 130 months (10.83 years)

[wasted]

27 minutes ago, DaddyDont said:

The last time the band was in the studio together was January 2007 (1 month) at Electric Lady Studios in New York City, so maybe then - that would have been when Ron redid the "Catcher in the Rye" and "Atlas Shrugged" solos

 

Before that, the last time they were in the studio was March 2004 to July 2005 (16 months) at Woodland Ranch Studios in Los Angeles after Buckethead left the band

 

They were at The Village in Los Angeles from October 2000 to February 2004 (40 months)

 

Before that, they were at Rumbo Recorders in Los Angeles from March 1998 to September 2000 (30 months), and The Complex in Los Angeles from April 1994 to November 1997 (43 months)

 

GRAND TOTAL STUDIO TIME = 130 months (10.83 years)

They booked out studio time but they were mostly redoing songs? Or working on the same 30 songs. Robin did say he worked on dozens of songs. 
 

I think it was when Axl mentioned he was encouraged to include TIL in the album, that's when he suggested a solo was added very late or recently to 2008. He called something Robin did Stevie Ray Vaughan shit? 
 

I can't imagine the situation where Robin is begging Axl to use it. But I can see it wasn't written in the CD era. Although the engineer said it was a piano song at first. 
 

I wonder if Prostitute was ever part of TIL. 

[Sydney Fan]

3 hours ago, DaddyDont said:

The last time the band was in the studio together was January 2007 (1 month) at Electric Lady Studios in New York City, so maybe then - that would have been when Ron redid the "Catcher in the Rye" and "Atlas Shrugged" solos

 

Before that, the last time they were in the studio was March 2004 to July 2005 (16 months) at Woodland Ranch Studios in Los Angeles after Buckethead left the band

 

They were at The Village in Los Angeles from October 2000 to February 2004 (40 months)

 

Before that, they were at Rumbo Recorders in Los Angeles from March 1998 to September 2000 (30 months), and The Complex in Los Angeles from April 1994 to November 1997 (43 months)

 

GRAND TOTAL STUDIO TIME = 130 months (10.83 years)

Id bet UMG was paying the tab on all of that studio time. 

I dont blame them getting whatever deal they could and releasing CD as quickly as they could to recoup the expenditure on the studio time alone.

From 98 onwards i wonder how often Axl was attending. Or was the studio time for the band and Axl would listen or record at his studio at home once given a copy of the DAT.

[EstrangedTWAT]

Axl rambled about a bunch of bullshit after performing This I Love for only the third time ever in Tokyo 2009 (yes, I was there!)

 

The "wind" section was a joke?  The "Deer Hunter" section?  The fuck is he talking about??

 

 

[DaddyDont]

27 minutes ago, Sydney Fan said:

From 98 onwards i wonder how often Axl was attending. Or was the studio time for the band and Axl would listen or record at his studio at home once given a copy of the DAT.

 

Big Daddy with the re-recorded "Sweet Child O' Mine" came out in June 1999, then "Oh My God" and the Live Era album came out in November 1999

 

Axl apparently did his Live Era overdubs in July 1999 and gave NewGNR the month off so he could focus on it - so I'm guessing he was feeling good vocally after that, and decided to start laying down vocals on new material soon after

 

edit: ah, here we go

 

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=3410

"Rumbles of Finck's decision had been going around for just a week, but it couldn't be made official because his two-year contract with GNR wasn't up until Saturday (Aug. 1). [...] A label spokesperson says, 'Robin finished recording several albums worth of material with Guns N' Roses. Axl is now working on the vocals for the album.'" (allstarnews.com, 08/04/99)

 

So Axl did his demo vocals in July/August 1999 - Robin confirms that when he quit in August, he still hadn't heard Axl's vocals on anything:

 

"It was great for a while, but then it became terribly frustrating not seeing anything completed because no lyrics were finished. [...] No one song was ever completed and I was there for two and a half years." (Robin, Wall of Sound, 05/00)

 

"I was excited about the material - the band sounded good. But we'd get a song done to an extent and wait for Axl to write a lyric and/or song. I couldn't work on songs with titles like 'Instrumental 34' anymore." (Robin, Kerrang, 12/99)

[Guest The Monkey]

10 minutes ago, EstrangedTWAT said:

The "Deer Hunter" section?  The fuck is he talking about??

 

The only other music I remember from this movie is like an operatic choir section.

[EstrangedTWAT]

Yeah, but does it sound anything like "This I Love?"

And dose any of his rambling incoherent gibberish at that show even make a complete thought?

[Guest The Monkey]

7 minutes ago, EstrangedTWAT said:

Yeah, but does it sound anything like "This I Love?"

And dose any of his rambling incoherent gibberish at that show even make a complete thought?

Not to me. The Deer Hunter is kinda about a love triangle between DeNiro and Walken and Streep. I thought his vague Madagascar ramble about The Old Man and the Sea made sense but this one doesn't really. Not to me anyway.

[Guest Ragnar The Rape Enthusiast]

7 hours ago, DaddyDont said:

 

Big Daddy with the re-recorded "Sweet Child O' Mine" came out in June 1999, then "Oh My God" and the Live Era album came out in November 1999

 

Axl apparently did his Live Era overdubs in July 1999 and gave NewGNR the month off so he could focus on it - so I'm guessing he was feeling good vocally after that, and decided to start laying down vocals on new material soon after

 

edit: ah, here we go

 

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=3410

"Rumbles of Finck's decision had been going around for just a week, but it couldn't be made official because his two-year contract with GNR wasn't up until Saturday (Aug. 1). [...] A label spokesperson says, 'Robin finished recording several albums worth of material with Guns N' Roses. Axl is now working on the vocals for the album.'" (allstarnews.com, 08/04/99)

 

So Axl did his demo vocals in July/August 1999 - Robin confirms that when he quit in August, he still hadn't heard Axl's vocals on anything:

 

"It was great for a while, but then it became terribly frustrating not seeing anything completed because no lyrics were finished. [...] No one song was ever completed and I was there for two and a half years." (Robin, Wall of Sound, 05/00)

 

"I was excited about the material - the band sounded good. But we'd get a song done to an extent and wait for Axl to write a lyric and/or song. I couldn't work on songs with titles like 'Instrumental 34' anymore." (Robin, Kerrang, 12/99)

Axl's 99 voice was awesome. Healthy mix of rasp and clean voice....

 

Not too much rasp like in 92 for instance, which was fucking jarring....

 

He sounded like he'd munched on glass and a clean voice which wasn't mickey high on helium...

[Slugworth]

On 11/19/2023 at 11:02 AM, gunsntortillas said:

 It's a miracle the album came out at all.

 

At the end of the day, it only came out because there was a perfect storm where they were able to find multiple business-to-business transactions to bail the recording company out of the recording costs.

Azoff is the only reason we got the album. Look at management before and after Azoff. There wasn't anybody in the GNR camp pre-2008 or post-2008 capable of getting an album out the door.

 

Even with him steering the ship briefly, it was still fucked up. It really highlights how unlikely the album release always was.

 

On 11/19/2023 at 11:02 AM, gunsntortillas said:

He does have a legitimate gripe about how half-assed the release was with errors in the booklets, and even the incorrect mix of one of the songs allegedly making it as far as the pressing plant. A lot of the song-titles were not even finalized with the marketing material. 

It was all on him and TB. They put together that booklet.

 

The song titles/working song titles beyond a joke even at that point. Street of Dreams was initially supposed to be Stardust.

 

I even find the alternate covers laughable. Your one album does not need a hodgepodge of covers.

 

 

16 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

In terms of musical baggage if i remember back to 06/7 on the GNR website there was no band photos, no streaming of their discography on the website, even the leaked CD songs.

That's when I started to realize he wasn't really taking new GNR seriously. He wasn't genuinely interested in moving forward.

 

16 hours ago, DaddyDont said:

GRAND TOTAL STUDIO TIME = 130 months (10.83 years)

Yikes.

 

All he had to show for it was CD and leftovers...all with their origins in 1999-2001.

 

Imagine what Pink Floyd could've accomplished with that much studio time in the 70s.

 

 

12 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

From 98 onwards i wonder how often Axl was attending. Or was the studio time for the band and Axl would listen or record at his studio at home once given a copy of the DAT.

He had minimal involvement after 2001. Even Fortus admitted in an interview a few years ago that the majority of Axl's vocals were done by that point.

 

The 2002-6 period is embarrassing from a creative standpoint. The band wasn't together a single time during that period. Dizzy said the first time they got together after the 2002 aborted tour was rehearsals for Hammerstein.

12 hours ago, DaddyDont said:

It was great for a while, but then it became terribly frustrating not seeing anything completed because no lyrics were finished. [...] No one song was ever completed and I was there for two and a half years." (Robin, Wall of Sound, 05/00)

 

"I was excited about the material - the band sounded good. But we'd get a song done to an extent and wait for Axl to write a lyric and/or song. I couldn't work on songs with titles like 'Instrumental 34' anymore." (Robin, Kerrang, 12/99)

What a cluster fuck.

 

His initial instinct to bail on the project was correct.

 

His instinct to jump back in for a 2000-1 tour believing the album was coming out was wrong.

 

It caused him to waste 7 more years of his career that could've been spent in NIN...his real home.

[Guest Ragnar The Rape Enthusiast]

His real home.....

 

Playing Shitnor's white noises....

 

Funch must be desperate these days as he charges 100 bucks for a 15-minute zoom call...

 

Shitnor mustn't be paying him during downtime...

 

Axl turned Buckethead into a stunt player and forced him to play second fiddle to Funch instead of making him THE ONLY lead guitarist...

 

Dumbarse !!!!

[Jeff Isbell]

4 hours ago, Ragnar said:

Axl's 99 voice was awesome. Healthy mix of rasp and clean voice....

 

Not too much rasp like in 92 for instance, which was fucking jarring....

 

He sounded like he'd munched on glass and a clean voice which wasn't mickey high on helium...

1991 was probably his most extreme rasp, he toned it down a little back in 1992. 
 

and yes, 99 Axl was pretty solid. Late 2002 was probably the closest, when talking about live performances

[gunsntortillas]

22 minutes ago, Ragnar said:

His real home.....

 

Playing Shitnor's white noises....

 

Funch must be desperate these days as he charges 100 bucks for a 15-minute zoom call...

 

Shitnor mustn't be paying him during downtime...

 

Axl turned Buckethead into a stunt player and forced him to play second fiddle to Funch instead of making him THE ONLY lead guitarist...

 

Dumbarse !!!!

 

I don't know anything about the Robin Finck's current career, but most celebrities who aren't top-level A-listers do that cameo and zoom thing because it is incredibly profitable. It isn't like a full time gig or anything, they get a notification when some dork wants one, or when someone orders one as a gift. Usually it isn't a one-on-one thing. Someone says "Hey Fernando, Tyler is a big fan of Guns N' Roses, can you wish him a Happy Birthday", and then Fernando or whatever other B-Z list celebrity takes the $60 and records a 1 to 5 minute video on their webcam saying "Hey Tyler, Mandy told me it was your birthday. I hope you have a better time than I am having right now! All jokes aside, have a rocking birthday!!!!!!!".

 

Granted, some celebrities who make it their bread and butter like the Soup Nazi put in a lot of effort, but it's basically a license to print money without doing anything. 

 

https://www.cameo.com/gilbygtr17?qid=1700511751&aaQueryId=25aae6394b34cb02c46d74e14b56909a

 

Fucking Gilby Clarke cashing in with half-assed 20 second videos. Lol.